Well, my professional education and preparation was in the field of mathematics. I had taught math at the University of Buffalo for twenty years before I discovered the world of creativity and was pretty much a left brained person and not only had I taught math, I loved it, but I was also in the Navy during World War II and I was a computer programmer and that takes a lot of straight line thinking but I discovered that it needed something beyond that and I think I found that in creativity what it needed beyond that.

11:02:07:00

11:03:15:15

[I wasn’t aware of the fact that you were involved with computer programming ever, but were you involved in the early editions of the first mainframe computers?]

Very first, I was mathematics engineering officer stationed with Grace Hopper on Mark I computer at Harvard and our commanding officer was Howard Aiken who had invented the machine so it was a wonderful opportunity and Grace was probably one of the best teachers, mentors, ah, facilitators that I could have possibly had. She and I were the only two women on the station. We had a very small group of technician that assisted, those of us who were mathematicians and engineers, and uh, I survived two years of that and I was so anxious to get back to human beings that I eventually returned to teaching. I had taught for two years at the University of Buffalo before I had joined the Navy but after two years on the machine, I knew I was a people person and I had to get to people.

11:03:15:25

11:04:12:24

[Was there some creativity…in those early computer programming efforts?]

Yes, of course because we were given the formulas by the physicists, incidentally I worked on the Manhattan Project which I didn’t know at the time, but we were given the basic formulas and we had to get the answers and so how we would do the programming, the commander had taught Grace to program the machine and Grace in turn taught me so I was the second woman programmer in the field of computing.

[and one of the first computer programmers ever actually]

That’s right and this machine was established, went into 24 hour operation in 1944…I arrived less than a month after it had been put into operation so it was a very exciting place to be.

11:04:13:00

11:04:54:05

[This is prior to any of your formal training in creativity?]

Yes, yes. I really knew very little about that, that there was a world of creativity out there but I think I was saved from being a total left brained person because I loved music and I taught myself to play the violin when I was six years old, I was a music major in High School, and in addition to being a math major, and a general science minor I was also a music minor in college so that appeased me enough that I ready to find more of it I guess.

11:04:56:11

11:08:40:28

[Talk to me about how you met Sid Parnes and how you got involved in the development of the CPS process?]

Well, I had taught at the University for over 20 years in the math department and I had heard about the Creative Problem Solving Institute and I was having dinner one evening with the secretary to Bob Burner who was the Dean under whom the institute functioned and I asked her what the institute was all about. I said I heard about it and as a mathematician I deal with problems all the time, what’s different about the Creative Problem Solving Institute that would be of interest to me and I was just curious and she said why don’t you come and find out and there was a possibility then of faculty working their way through the institute, so I did committee work, and actually I had never known Sid, I had never met Sid before, although I knew Bee because her children and my children were in a faculty children’s swimming class together, so Bee and I used to sit and watch our children swimming and I didn’t meet Sid until just the beginning of that Institute, which I think it was, maybe the 10^th,I’m not sure

[That would make it about…]

1964, I think it was, either, 64 or 65 and so I worked on a committee contacting leaders who were invited to come, and I just did general, helping work, and by the end of the week, I knew that I had found something that I didn’t know I was looking for. The Friday at the end of CPSI, Sid said to me you’ve seemed to taken to us and we’ve taken to you, would you be interested in working with us? He knew nothing about my background other than the fact that I was on the math faculty, I’m not sure he even knew that and I said well when? And he said Monday, which was just a couple days in the future, and I said no because I had two young children and I didn’t want to be away from them for the summer and he said well suppose we hold the job open to the fall and I said sure, I’ll do it. I had no idea of what he wanted me to do, and he really knew very little about me, but we took each other on in faith and, so he held the job open for me, so my first opportunity to work in the world in creativity was half of a state line and the other half was a woman who later was a part of the faculty of the department of philosophy, Toni Paterson, so she and Sid and I would work together on setting up programming and he didn’t know that I was a programmer on computers and my first responsibility was writing linear, scanarian, linear programming for the development of creative behavior and it was tantalizing, I just, I couldn’t leave it alone.

11:08:41:01

11:11:46:22

[What was your involvement or what was your role in the development of what we now think of as the CPS process?]

Part of the instructional aspect of it had been well written by Sid…but we began to try to do programming for a self-instructional approach and that was my first responsibility and we found that by doing this linear programming, we could put a statement on one page and then from that page on we would give some data and ask a question and just in one sentence at a time, we would turn the page and give an answer and I was amazed because it wasn’t the answer…this was my first introduction to being able to give several answers…deferring judgment to say this isn’t the answer, these are the answers that could be acceptable and this was done I think over a period of several months to prepare it for a research project which was then carried on in the Buffalo city schools in 1966. They were teacher taught...and we made comparisons…we had control students and we found that…the students who were in the teacher taught courses although they simply read the instructions just as the students would read their own…they were always there for assurance…but we found that the teacher taught results were far superior to the controls and the students who used the program materials did better than the controls but not as good as the teacher taught and that convinced me more than ever that the person made a lot of difference.

11:11:47:11

11:12:30:06

[What was it like working with Sid?]

Wonderful. Sid has been a delight to work with…we have a lot in common with our families, our children have grown up together…he’s just a delight to work with. He is so open, very little criticism. He really lives what he proposes for all of us. He is a truly creative person, I believe.

11:12:31:05

11:13:48:00

[Talk to us about deferral of judgment…]

…with my mathematical background, the best example I can give you…we have been able to now have people now say 1 and 1 doesn’t always equal 2 because it depends on what you are referring to, what the subject is…and it’s because of deferring judgment. I am a Libran and I’ve been told that Librans can never can come to a decision because of the typical balance which represents Librans because they weigh things until you’re so tired…you can hardly tolerate it. well I have to be careful when I’m deferring judgment that I don’t defer too long…

11:13:48:20

11:16:09:12

[How does that work on a personal level when you are working with people…?]

..it has worked so well…in raising two sons…I was told one time that having two Librans parent’s were the worst thing in the world…with parents who are always balancing things out…I find that…he (my husband) and when he’s purchasing a new refrigerator, new car…he will get every bit of data that he can and finally I will say let’s cut it here and buy something. I find I have to use my understanding of deferring judgment to go one step further and say we can’t defer, we have to finally make a decision and because of my training I have a definition of creativity which very few people use and it’s an equation and that equation is to say creativity is a function of three variables and those variables are knowledge, imagination and evaluation and I have to keep reminding myself that there has to be an evaluation that is taking place…we have to come to a decision.

11:16:09:20

11:17:19:01

[Talk to me about how you’ve seen how the CPS process has evolved. Where it started and where it is now?]

It’s just an amazing thing to see what happened in the media. When I began working in the field, we would hear the word (creativity) mentioned once in a while, …but now it is a household word. When I began researching in creativity, there were a few books…and now there are libraries…so it isn’t just us, it’s people from around the world.

11:17:19:14

11:21:19:02

[Why do you think it is that …certain communities, perhaps the business community, are somewhat resistant to the word itself, what are your thoughts on that?]

I think they (business)are suspicious because there are so few real understandings of what creativity really is. I remember in the early days, we were referred to as those crazy people…personally, I had a comment made to me by one of my friends in the school of engineering…he had found out that I was involved with the Creative Problem Solving Institute…there’s nothing to it except craziness…he felt that anything that could be done could be taught in a half an hour or an hour and from that point on it was practice and I said then do you think I could be taught in a half an hour or an hour and then I would just practice…well what was kind of natural…very happily I had the opportunity to invite him to CPSI…for visiting one day….it was a rude awakening for him…now I understand what you were talking about, there really is something in this after all. I was a little resentful because initially they would say that my getting involved in it would give …creativity courses…would give it some credence…they would say if Ruth goes for it, it must be okay. I resented that terribly so I made sure that quite a few of my faculty friends came to have the experience…a friend of mine…finally did come…she was the chairman of the math department of Buffalo State College…and when the week was over….she said why didn’t you make me come. It was such an eye opener for her and she then incorporated it in the curriculum for math majors. They found out that the students were able to work problems that the faculty couldn’t work …they then instituted it for all majors…who were hoping to teach…Her statement was the students who had Creative Problem Solving think differently.

11:21:19:16

11:21:38:00

[How does a person go about making themselves more creative or their environment more creative?]

To begin with, they have to be open to it. There is no point in telling somebody about it, that person has to have an experience.

11:21:38:09

11:22:21:27

[Why should they be open to it?]

Because they are going to realize their potential. There is so much potential in every individual…whatever their field…there is so potential for contribution…we have so much to offer to ourselves as well as to other people and we just don’t realize that until we have a little understanding and …we don’t understand creativity until we are in it, we are exposed to it…

11:22:25:00

11:24:01:08

[One of the things that is said is that children are essentially detrained or essentially creativity is taken out of them over the years. What could we do differently there to improve or preserve the creativity that children have into adulthood?]

(Ruth nodding in agreement during question)

Well I have been asked several times to give messages for graduation classes and the message that I try to give them is to continue asking the question ‘why?’. Many years ago, Paul Torrance did some research with some youngsters…he found there was an actual decline in creative ability…at roughly the fourth grade level and again at teenage level and his explanation was involved with asking the question why?.. peer pressure became rampant at both these grade levels and so my emphasis would be to continue to be curious, why does something happen…it’s a little word, but the repercussions are tremendous.

11:24:02:01

11:25:30:22

[Talk to me about the future of the creativity movement.]

I don’t believe that there could be any limits. I have seen the institute grow from a couple hundred participants…now we’re up to a thousand…and we have institutes in local communities…there is just no limit because people hear about it, they want to have the experience, they talk with others…to me that’s an important part of the creative movement…in retirement, I have had the opportunity to go to many other countries and I find that they are just clamoring for it…

11:25:30:24

11:25:46:19

[So you see this as a world wide movement?]

without a doubt…I don’t know of anyplace where they wouldn’t welcome it if they knew about it and where they do know about it, they are searching for it.

11:25:50:16

11:28:05:01

[Let’s talk about the concept of mentoring and how CPS and how creativity principles can be applied to mentoring and what that does for the mentor and the mentored?]

…I’d like to begin by giving you a definition…the mentor is the guide by the side and not the sage on the stage and I believe that every teacher is a potential mentor…I think I’m interested in it because I’ve been mentored all my life. My parents were mentors to me because I lived in a very open environment…my parents wanted me to do what I wanted to do…I had very few limitations…I became interested in mathematics…although my father wanted me to be a doctor…an interesting implication when my father was in college, he and his roommate…made a pact…if they had daughters…they would both be medical doctors…they wanted us to go to the same school …and I rebelled early on….I digressed…I took all the sciences and this was alright with my father but unfortunately he died before I received my doctorate but not in medicine…I’m sure he would be satisfied.

11:28:05:07

11:28:41:23

[Do you have any final thoughts for the viewers…in regards to creativity?]

…since mentoring is of particular interest to me, I would say that whatever your interest is in creativity, you exemplify that and one of the strategies for mentoring…was that Creative Problem Solving should be shared by the mentor and the mentored in sharing and caring…